Or does it? If it does, explain how and what, I'm interested.
If it doesn't, explain why you think it doesn't.

If "yourbandsucks" or "anonymous" chime in and call this a useless post I wil slap some faces



-----------------

I think metal does have a subculture, but I'm not sure how prolific it is. For instance, with punk there is a constant, ever-rotating supply of "zines" and things that help build a community. The community is viewed as the nucleus for the actions and events that surround what punk does...this is like hip-hop, where there is an outcropping over word use, media, clothing, food, culture etc that extends beyond the reach of the music but is centered around the outcome IN the music.

Metal seems to have zines, events, etc that aren't always so focused on just one-two weekly shows, but there are far fewer picnics, non-music events, gatherings, etc.

Perhaps metal is the scene for people that aren't so community oriented, and that's the appeal?

Is this true on a broader scale? is it only a local thing that comes off this way? Or? share your experiences and thoughts.

Metal is for misanthropes.

That other male bonding crap is for homo's.

i don't think the fans and performers think it is as much "cool" to fit into a certain scene as is it to enjoy the music. metal seems to be music first, message second as opposed to the aforementioned genres being message first, music second (...maybe third).

in my humble and simultaneously educated elitist opinion, punk and hardcore are easier to listen to than metal. there's a lot less going on musically, which tends to not insult listeners' intelligence.
i am speaking generally here, folks, remember that. As does power metal, punk and hardcore vocalists are generally of a clearer sort, much easier to achieve the primary goal of "message first" when you can actually understand the fellow. I believe that this attracts listeners that may be less interested in the music but still seem to want to fit into a certain scene. The less work someone has to do, the better, right? Vocals are the main turnoff to most listeners, and face it, most genres of metal have pretty gross vocalists to the unjaded ear. It doesn't matter if you have Steve Vai as your guitarist, if you've got a vocalist yelling about his emo-homo-satano-ovolacto ethos, most listeners will ask, "Steve who?"

... peasants... pfft.

Wow, who ever made this thread is really ignorant. But if u want to judge things in a very general sense, then go for it.

WyrmFingerz said:


Fucking well said man.

WyrmFingerz said:


that makes sense, to me, actually. I agree that metal has always been a haven for those that are focused on something more than belonging. Early metalheads were shunned, often the D&D kids left by the wayside. Look at Ozzy, guy was a fucktard and a total hooligan in his teens. But then he goes on to make one of the most influential metal bands of the 70's/80's.

do you think subculture is important? I mean eventually the people who like more technically involved music with mutilated vocals will begin to relate on that topic, and then look for other things in common. Eventually they'll be friends and circles of friends like in othe genres of music. Do you think that the misanthropy of metal will keep cliques and trends from inbreeding, or do you think it is an inevitable outcome of anything that brings people together? Do you think community is very against the ethics of metal, or that it is potentially a part of it if viewed in a certain light?

I also agree 100% that metal is more about the music than anything else: it is a playground for musicians more than just arbitrary listeners.

for instance, you hear way more tech talk in metal, about composition, equipment, etc that are geared towards people with an attitude towards music that is far less lassez-faire.

However, does that mean that one aspect of metal, as a music, is that it is oriented on technicality? Can metal ever be simple? Does politics have a place in metal or not?

And also what are things that are specific to metal as far as culture. Yes, punk has the kickball and the parties and the picnics and stuff but what is the counterpart for metal? Do people in metal just not fratinize? and if people begin to fratenize, does it make them "less metal"?

this is all said with a nod to my better understanding of things and an intellectual discussion.

many metal fans are lazy. with your first question, i'm assuming you mean how come metal heads don't support metal itself as much as hardcore fans do (prime example: show attendance). remember metal, especially death metal, mostly relates to misanthropic/depressed/anti-social people. and yes there's just too much going on in metal songs for the majority of people to accept. being a musician, i NEVER say "there's just too much going on in the song for me to understand it" because i always can understand everything that happens in the songs.

only die hard metal fans and people who are open to new music will ever understand death metal. i am so fucking sick of people claiming "i don't like it because you can't understand what they're saying." but in current music, NO ONE has songs where u can make out every single word as they were originally written. i've heard Britney Spears songs where i didn't know what she said in a verse. so what is the big fucking dilemma? because we sing in a much lower (or higher) octave. people also can't understand the reason behind the vocal use in extreme metal. and it's very simple, if you're going to have extreme music and lyrics, you gotta have extreme vocals too. if you had Steven Tyler singing in Cannibal Corpse, it would not work. the majority of people are just plain ignorant and close-minded. if you don't like it that's fine, but at least understand it before you go bashing it.

but anyways, subculture is extremely important. if you don't have that, then you don't have a scene. and EVERYTHING is a scene/trend/ect. i've made many friends over the years with other people because they are metal fans. there definately is too much negativity in metal though. i for one, want extreme metal to go mainstream. for one, the bands deserve it. second, i don't know about the rest of you, but i'd rather turn on the tv and see Suffocation's "Surgery of Impalement" than Usher's "Yea" any day. and too many metal fans want to keep it underground. why would u wanna hold them back? if my best friend wants to go to law school, i'm not gonna hold him back so he ends up working at Burger King for the rest of his life, so why would i want to hold back my favorite bands too? people will battle that by saying "i don't want posers corrupting the death metal scene and turn it into some nu-metal fag shit" that's not necessarily true. before i got into death metal, i listened to nu-metal. i listened to korn, kid rock, limp bizkit, godsmack. now, i hate every single one of those bands. if i can change, then others can change too.

i agree that metal is more music than message, but it's kinda like 51% music, 49% message. because don't forget most metal fans first got into metal for it's messages. for instance rebelling against authority, and saying whatever the fuck you want to say. as far as politicts, i definately don't have a problem with it, and like i said, metal is all about saying whatever the fuck you wanna say.

yea you're right about the tech talk. in my opinion, musically punk rock is so simple that you literally never need to know any music theory to write/play it. but with metal, it helps a shitload. metal is all about being as extreme as you can possibly get. so that means you gotta get better at your instrument, and if you're a berkely graduate, then you can get pretty fuckin extreme on your instrument.

metal can definately be simple, like Jungle Rot for instance. you can't get more simple than them. but metal musicians tend to become perfectionists. i know that i am ALWAYS searching for that "perfect tone" on my bass, and look into new equipment to get that tone. Cannibal Corpse is the only band i know of that admits to writing super technical music because they WANT it to be super technical. i don't think most metal bands TRY to be technical, they just end up being technical. for example, my band Dehumanized. we have some pretty easy songs like Terminal Punishment, and Doomed to Die. but then we also have Infinite Despair which is actually a pretty damned hard song to play. we just write whatever we think works best for the song. if it's hard to play, oh well.

things that are specific to metal as a culture, i don't think should be an issue. i don't think there should be a "Metal Fridays at Denny's" just to prove you're a seperate culture or anything. personally, i think the only thing that makes you "less metal" is by trying to prove just how metal you are. to be true to yourself, is to just be yourself, and not proving yourself to other people. my old singer is a huge fucking poser because he's always trying to prove himself to me. perfect fucking example:

Me: dude i got the new Vital Remains cd last night and i can't stop listening to it. it's so fucking good, go buy it.

Him: dude check it out man i got the new Vital Remains!!! YEA!!!! \m/
Me: how is it?
Him: oh i dont know i haven't listened to it yet, BUT I GOT IT YEA!!!!! \m/

i wrote 20 page paper and gave a lecture on the subculture of metal when i was in college... back around 98... it exists... its changed....

buy the book

Death Metal Music: The Passion and Politics of a Subculture

by Natalie J. Purcell. excellent book. very informative. buy it. www.amazon.com

AUTOPSY_666 said:

Bingo

But from what I've heard and read, there used to be one when death metal and thrash were "big". But I wasnt around then so I couldnt tell ya. But as for why there isnt a subculture now, I think Autopsy 666 hit it perfectly

I definately think this could be described as a subculture. We have our own stores, fests, clothes, zines, websites, labels, ect.... I think that definately classifies as a subculture. I don't have much else to say that Kalopsia didn't already.

it's a way of life but at the same time it's non conformist and pretty much anti everything, nihilistic. it can be a subculture as much as you pursue it for your own.

agreed.

Yo, how was the new job??

dude it's pretty cool. they put latex all over my face, i looked like i have a severe facial wound all bloody, rotted and exposed. not enough horror folk working there though. it's getting better each night however. fall river is funny.

Metal fans have an odd habbit of going out of thier way to throw stones at the punk and hardcore scene. If I were to say metal is: Hair first, black leather second, metal spikes third... and music rates in somewhere around 13th I would get some posts by a bunch of metal heads declaring my ignorance, as if all of thier 'hardcore is about bandanas and camo shorts' are somehow wiped clean.
People shouldn't segrigate the two arts, there are much better things to hate out there.

Because your 'Metal statements' are false and the truth about hardcore is just that: true.

just open the Pheonix....

"Hardcore band looking for bassist: must be vegan, hate organized religion, hate politics."

where's the part about the talent?

WyrmFingerz, I would like you to remove that post because it's completely devistating to my side of the arguement. No fair.

yeah who is wyrmfingerz?!?!? how the hell did he write such an eloquent response before?!?!?!? I am intrigued.

it was well thought out.

i think #1 metal is all about the music. thats why there isnt as much of a subculture, their too busy makin more music and pushing themselves that much more. the lyrics usually come after that, because they just need to be brutal and violent or whatever to fit the music, but in some bands they r just as important as the other. bands like cephalic carnage, vehemence, and quite a few others have amazng and eye opening lyrics, which in my opinion makes their music that much better and meaningful. as far as metal going mainstream, thats the worst possible thing that could ever happen. that would be the end of creativity and technical skill. actually i cant even believe thats at all possible because for it to become mainstream it would have to conform into a certain pattern, become predictable and packaged so the media can sell it. then it wouldnt be FUCKING METAL anymore. it would just be shit like everything else.

perhaps the prefix of word subculture suggests the answer you're looking for.
below, underneath, less than....
Many die hard metalheads I know don't "dress" or look the part of a metal head. That doen't mean shit really. It's probably because for most metalheads, its music first.
its an adolecent tendancy to want to identify, dress and be validated by your peers. I think you trendy scenester fucks are really just too insecure to stand alone and be a real individual.

in my band, there are very opposing political points of view about the war, economics and such. There are many other differences between our band members. I think its great to be able to work with Shroud and this diversity is good. I couldn't imagine playing in a band where everybody had the same politics, eating disorders, and so forth.

there are metal subcultures
the problem is that it is that "metal" is a broad subject or term to house music under let alone the people that follow.
would the same person that likes blind gaurdian like converge? mostlikely not.
would that person also be likely to go see my dying bride or diecast live?
there are tons of fractous little subcultures, but I guess you could call them all part of the metal subculture by asking "do you like slayer?"

the_taste_of_cigarettes said:


heh heh, i had to balance it out, you know how that goes.

niccolai said:


so fucking true

exhumed4death, how would metal going mainstream be the end of creativity, ect? i meant metal going mainstream, but it didn't change or anything to get there, more people just started accepting it. fucking Suffocation has been on MTV2, and they haven't sold out or anything. i mean mainstream by millions of people buying extreme metal albums, nothing else

I was thinking today about the old grind scene boston had. I met a lot of people through that scene who I still know today. Some of them went 'punk' though I suppose you could always say they were punk...the old grind scene was like crust and doom mixed with grind so it was just really filthy kids drinking swill and puking on themselves in shitty, dustry drab warehouse spaces. It was great, though, in that the music still had complexity to it, or at least compostionaly integrity, but wasn't so distant that the average person could not identify with it...it was fast, furious, and chaotic, but noisey enough so that I found a real haven in it.

that scene died, and much like a hyrda, all this other shit sprung up, then more shit, and then more scenes took its place that didn't have the same pizzaz. It made me question whether or not metal really has, in itself, the potential to be as consuming a thing as the punk scene has become over X amount of years...there was a "grind" look and a crowd. I think, honestly, despite my real enjoyment of that time and the shows, that there were cliques and shit that now I'd probably rail against. But still, it happened and it happened over music that people would call Metal - Noothgrush, Chicken Chest & The Birdboys, Astronaut Catastrophe, His Hero Is Gone, Disrupt, etc.

I wonder if those days are gone, and maybe if they are gone for good, maybe it's not the worst thing.

However, part of me misses the ease of doing shows (fuck clubs, we did them in basements), the subculture and community, the friends, and most of all how the music seemed to have a "place" politically and socially.

I agree, the most refreshing thing about modern metal is its WAY WAY less oriented on scene and all that shit -- as far as total geeks can start the most popular metal band and people will like them based almost solely on the music -- but by the same note some of that charisma of going to a show, making new friends, feeling part of something, has faded...

Kalopsia said:

i have trouble figuring out how to respond to that, cuz it kind of seems like an oximoron to me, like how could that ever happen? the majority of people, especially americanized idiots, are not going to buy extreme metal albums, period. ehh i dunno

i know that exhumed, all i'm saying is i want that to happen

strangley, though, look at how in under a century "black" music rose from taboo to mainstream. Presedential, right-wing candidates are having black musicians, playing primarily black music, play at their events.

That said, the shape of popular music has changed so much, that perhaps it is possible for something like extreme metal, which is viewed as taboo as black music once was, to rise to an acceptable level in society?

what does "americanizing" have to do with it?
aren't we the largest market in the world?

was black music taboo?chuck berry played to all-white audiences in the 50's, and almost every style of music (save country or bluegrass) has been predomintately (cant spell) effected by roots music one way or the other. just a thought, im prob wrong. good thread.

the taste of cigarettes said:

It depends how you look at man. I'll be sitting outside our practice space in Boston and see tons of punk kids walking by each other and never saying a word to each other even though they are both obviously punk. Everytime a kid in a Skinless or Cryptopsy shirt walks by I end up in a ten minute conversation with them. I have met 90% of my friends through metal. Some people go to shows and won't meet anybody the whole night. I'd rather get hammered, have a good time, and end up meeting 15 new people. I definately do feel part of something in this scene. I mean I kind of have to when almost everyone of my friends is in a death band. I mean, culturally, it stands out alot more in Europe and other places where they have those 3 day camping fest every weekend and everyones always partying together but we have that here also. For instance, if you go to Maryland Deathfest and stay at the motel 6 you will see every door in the hotel open and everyone partying together.

heh, you said Noothgrush.

goratory said:

i can vouch for that since i was at the motel 6 for this years MDF lol. shitloads of metal kids and a couple bands stayed there, including Vomit Remnants and Profanity.

WyrmFingerz said:

by americanized idiots i mean the people fully brainwashed by american politics and culture, thoroughly unable to think on their own or form an opinion outside of what theyv been told to think. and yes, that is the majority. these people r not going to listen to extreme metal unless george bush comes out flashing the horns wearing a bound and gagged shirt

i listen to metal because thats what i listen to.

goratory said:


if you want me to be upfront about it, I'd like to see that more often, you know? that kind of thing sounds really great and maybe there needs to me more of that without only having it hither nither with a fest once a year. That kind of openness can sort of vindicate what a person's done at the end of the night once they unplug the amp and have to return to being a person again.

hardcore is for drama queens, snot nosed high school kids, and fashion designers...

coldnorthernvengeance said:


but does that mean that the exta-curricular stuff (curricular being writing and playing music) that hardcore kids do is only reserved for people of that mentality? Or is there more to music than just the words and songs? Isn't the music shaped by the lives we lead around it, or is it the other way around when it comes to this particular genre, where the music shapes our lives?

Not exactly sure. Metal has these types of people but I think you see more of them in HC...

it shapes our lives to a certain extent. it influences many of us on the way we dress, the way we look at things, even the way we talk. but i sure as hell am no serial killer

hardcore/punk/emo/other crap aren't really underground anymore...it's become trendy to associate with that whole scene. whereas metal is concerned, there are more people who genuinely love the music, but just so happen to be the types to stick with their group of friends because most people in the world suck ass and it's a waste of time interacting with them

good point

It goes from being a civil debate to nonsence, any metal head who claims hardcore is a fashion show is confused, an INSANE amoutn of metal is founded on the very base of fashion. To say that hardcore is full of drama doesn't make tons of sence I mean, how many threads are started by hardcore kids bitching about metal and how many threads are started by metal heads with a rusty tampon in thier ass about hardcore?
Every arguement on either side is relative so to say all metal or all hardcore kids do or look a certain way is inaccurate because not only are there exceptions, but 99% of the time it's just flat out untrue. As I said before, there are better things to hate.

Metal is apolitical hardcore/punk is not.

Thrash was VERY political.

I wouldn't say hardcore is political, punk is extreemly political though, more so than some metal

It varies from band to band, to say one genre is political is a stupid thing to say. I think for punk it's still considered somewhat of a movement (whether it is not can be debated but I won't get involved) so it's part of that attitude (and I am not saying a political movement).

For hardcore it's a community/scene thing, you aren't hardcore enough if you don't attend shows to show off how hardcore you are to everyone else. That doesn't necesarilly mean a fashion show, just the whole community aspect thing - which for some probably does include dressing a certain way.

Metal, compared to punk and hardcore, is more just a love for the music. Friendships are made for sure, but it doesn't have the movement attitude of the punk scene or the scene attitude of hardcore. That is those people's social life, for metal not as much, atleast on the same scale. In metal it's just what they listen to for music, as opposed to it defining who they are (again, compared to hardcore and punk).

Thank you Joe, I knew I was stupid, now...you just confirmed my thoughts.

armageddonday said:

No problem frenchie

armageddonday said:

"I’d rather died than to live in this fucked world
Mr. President I’m not here to do your dirty work
Alone, I think I’m fighting a losing battle
Worth dying not for oil
NO WAR Amerika the brutal"
-Amerika the brutal by Six Feet Under

like I said 4 years ago when bush won "well, at least now bands will have something to write songs about."

and don't confuse that with what joenc said, which was seig hiel!

Like joe said,m it varies from band to band. Remembering never is extreemly political.

Why does everyone makes jokes about me being a nazi?

yeah there's a big chasm there, though:

Nazism = hinted at and somewhat joked about in metal; sometimes imagery and fashion are borrowed

Nazism = hated by punks, and hardcore kids; PC people flip out if you joke about it.

ExHuMeD4DeAtH said:



Heh.. ok.... The reason people don't listen to extreme metal because it's extreme, it's hard to listen to. granted, that may be in part cultural (i find arabic nose flute music really irritating, they don't), however, the entire driving force behind metal is to be "in your face" and abrasive, an aural "fuck you."

As to your assumption, being told to like numetal is way cooler than being German and told to like David Hasslehoff.

Joe/NotCommon said:

heh heh heh. there ain't much room to help you out withthat one, yowza.

I think the most presiding question is to why Metal is so solipsistic, or at least independent, and other music is a bit more about community.

For instance, tribal music tends to be just that: music from a tribe, for a tribe, and to bring them together. Metal seems to be more about the self, the solo, the nihilistic one. Is that metal's role, or the outcome of the people who end up making it? Like is it nature or nuture?

because most metal allows the virtuostic to show off, it's a lot like classical/traditional musicians- both lead guitarists and violinists are cocky bastards (i say that with love, of course), and granted, most have the right to hold their head high.

on this, food for thought- metal is more closely related to "classical" music in terms of arragements, harmonies, the epic-factor. Whereas hardcore is more closely related to the tribal mentality, guitars and bass are chugging the same lines, kick drums match up with the riff, rare soloing, and the aforementioned general community oriented events. Throughout time, European/Western musicians have always been snooty, this is just a modern extension of that.

this guy is my new mentor.

right on about hardcore having tribal influence...i think I wrote a paper on that or something, it's pretty obvious that modern HC (or at least the HC coming out of the 90's) has a tribal influence in the drumming as the backbone and the percussion / rhythm as the real heart of the music, much like African tribal music.

new mentor? pishaw, you flatter!

buy my cd and we call it even.

Metal is metal it is all about the music, not clothes, styles, carss, jewelry, religion, stance on drugs/sex/beer.

its the only genre dedicated entirly to music, which is why there is a huge number of musicians in metal because metal gives off such a passion that the fans wnat to make thier own music.

When ever some dude ("Metal head") sees me wearing a band shirt he nods his head or comments. I do the same because in this crappy country most "Metal heads" are hard to find in public. The only time I ever see a bunch is on mass ave inbetween classes or at shows. Last night at the "we should stick together". Damn fucking right!!!

This yammering answered nothing. I'm Sorry.

Joe NotCommon made a really good point about how self-initiative or doing-it-yourself has become associated with hardcore more than metal...Joe if you see this tomorrwo you should reiterate that. i don't want to misquote you and I thought it was poignant.

I think the DIY mentality is why more people go to hardcore and punk shows, and go on time and for the entire show. The individual fan takes more responsibility for the 'scene' in hardcore and punk. Also in indie rock, but thats more of a snootie attitude type of thing.