watching the vh-1 history of heavy metal, which i am skeptical to begin with and my hatred of Kiss just multiplied. capitalism is not metal.....

Kiss are not heavy metal

KISS sucked. Paul Stanley is THE gayest human being on the planet. Kiss has more merchandise than Krusty The Clown. I remember when they launched their "comeback tour" like 8 years ago there was a $17.00 extra charge on every ticket (that's AFTER the $50+ cover charge and the $10+ service charge from ticketmaster or whatever) it turned out that all that money was going DIRECTLY to the band. Way to care about your fans.

yeah i saw some of that last night. i only watched this segment with quiet riot and how "metal health" was the number one record in america in 1983, and after that record companies were signing metal bands left and right.
then there was a segment about how motley crue were the baddest motherfuckers around and how they were so shocking when they came out. pfff....

watching that crap bothered me. it made me glad i listen to the kind of music i do. i turned it off and went to bed.

oh yeah, and i loathe kiss with all of my being.

i get emails from the kiss army..i never subscribed to it..but they've used my photos for stuff and somehow they added me

KISS= GAY

KISS is awesome. boo to the haters. And they're definitely not metal.

succubus said:

Kiss Army recruiters are the worst.

Kiss is great, and yes, the majority of the world considers them 'heavy metal' since they never say 'hard rock' anymore. At the very least, they had a pretty big impact on a lot of metal bands.

Their whole Kiss Army merchandise attitude is indeed stupid though.

KISS from the 70's rule. don't really give a shit about anything else.
KISS ALIVE is one of the greatest rock albums ever.

kiss rules. they are not metal, but theyll kick your ass.

Right here, can't stand em.

KISS sucks.

blue said:

Paul Stanley wants to do something to your ass. Kicking it is at the bottom of the list.

Kiss= neo nazis

If you ever see the kiss army log the two s's look exactly like the SS logo for the nazi soldiers back in WWII

Y_Ddraig_Goch said:

Yeah, a neo nazi band full of jews. You = smart.

When did Kiss all of the sudden stop being a metal band?

hate kiss

I like all the kiss albums from the 70's but I'd never pay money to go see them now.

I was made for loving you baby
You were made for loving me


These are crazy,crazy,crazy,crazy nights


Unholy
I was created by you



I used to like KISS back in the day but I think their pretty lame now.Still better than the Mallcore/tough guy metal thats out now

Remember that movie Kiss meets the phantom?

Josh_Martin said:

In my opinion they are a metal band, and if you ask just about anyone they'd refer to kiss as 'heavy metal', so that's pretty much how it will go down. People used to throw around 'hard rock' a lot, but I rarely hear that term anymore.

I love their 70s records the most, the s/t and Destroyer, but I also love the 80s records for all the trash.

Is Kiss are metal then so are Guns and Roses.NOT!! Both are hard rock

What the fuck? Kiss do not consider themselves metal. Metalheads do not consider them to be metal. Critics do not consider them to be metal. But KISS fans love to think that they are metal. They think 'Heavy Metal' sounds so much cooler than 'Hard Rock'. They are so in denial. KISS aren't metal. They call their music 'Rock' for fucks sake. But their fans can't accept that for some weird reason.

So that means Judas Priest aren't metal now? Because there are Kiss songs in the 80s that are easily as heavy as many of the earlier Priest records. Judas Priest has songs that refer to themselves as rock too. Same with Saxon and Motorhead. Are those now no longer heavy metal?

Some people consider G'n'R metal too, which is why they are always on those crappy TV metal countdowns.

Have you guys heard 'The Elder'?

See what I mean? It's a blurry line, so who gives a fuck. Call it what you want.

No. Kiss is not as heavy as Judas Priest. Please. Judas Priest writing an acoustic song does not cancel them from being metal. Likewise, a rock band writing an occasional metal song does not make them metal.

This has no bearing on whether they are good or not. But for some weird reason, their Kiss Army is determined to make everyone call them metal.

Kiss at their earliest shows promoted themselves as "Heavy Metal Masters"
Of course they considered themselves a metal band. Look at who their opening acts were.

Some Kiss seems more like rock to me, other songs seem heavier and more metal. The 80s stuff fits right into the genre that most people call 'hair metal.'

And yes, Kiss are greedy bastards trying to make as much money as possible. Get over it, they're still awesome.

Josh, please post those Paul Stanley stage banter audio files again, they were unbelievably funny and the search function on this board still doesn't work.

demondave said:

Man, what are you talking about? Priest isn't heavy on any of the early albums. There are KISS songs as heavy as "Breaking the Law" and "Electric Eye". You obviously have not listened to a lot of KISS and you are trying to ID their style on a few popular songs you've heard.

Power chords. Chugging. Metal lyrics. Solos. Metal attitude. Metal stageshow. Metal vocals. KISS had them, just like Priest or Saxon. If you're applying your logic to say KISS is not a metal band, then you can't just suddenly toss your logic to the wind and make exceptions for early Priest, Saxon, or 90% of the rest of the entire NWOBHM movement, which, not surprisingly, KISS was as heavy as or heavier (Yet it's perfectly okay to call Ethel the Frog and Vardis metal....)

Josh is 100% correct, I've even heard Gene referring to KISS as a 'heavy metal' show.

For the record, I am NOT a Kiss army member, I think the merchandise blitz is retarded, but I've been listening to them since I could walk (77-78).

DrinkHardThrashHard said:


Kiss dont come close to being as good as Priest

Comparing Judas fuckin Priest to KISS is like comparing cheesecake to dogshit.

KISS sux ASS!

If you were to say KISS were metal (and Gene Simmons is an idiot, so they are not metal just cause his bigdumbjewface says so) than Alice Cooper would be metal, too?

I suppose it doesn't make a shit of a difference really, but I consider them both hard rock.

Fuck revisionist history. Just because metal today doesn't sound like metal 30 years ago doesn't mean the old shit isn't metal anymore. My god, this is retarded.

The first recorded use of "heavy metal" to describe a band's sound was in a Rolling Stone review of a Humble Pie album in 1971. They coined the term, they get to decide who fits.
According the Rolling Stone 1976 yearbook, Kiss and Alice Cooper (and Aersmith, Deep Purple, Blue Oyster Cult, and others I forget) are all fucking metal bands.

People can think what they want but that doesn't make them correct.

Who cares though, seriously? You're an angry man.

Josh_Martin said:

Agreed, what people thought may be considered metal then isn't considered metal today because we're used to the extreme versions of metal or sub genre's of metal. We don't take into consideration that these bands laid the ground work for new metal bands to play heavier and faster then metal bands almost 20-30 years ago.

I think we should get back to the original point of this thread, and that is that KISS sucks.

KISS SUX!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't think KISS sucks. I'm not too crazy about their music and I hate how much stupid merchandise they have. IMO they just capitalize on their image and you know what the funny thing is. They're richer than all of us combind because people actually buy that rediculous merchandise.

TRUE..

I like how people suddenly resort to "who cares" when they get proven wrong.

Music genres are nothing but ways to sell records to a certain fan base. "Heavy Metal" is not some sacred term, its just a marketing tool.
A band's genre is defined by it fanbase. Who listens to Kiss? Metal kids listen to Kiss.

I hate KISS! fuck em!

Josh_Martin said:


I'm sorry but I don't give a shit what Rolling Stone says about heavy metal. I also don't give a shit what genre YOU or anyone else consider KISS. I think you're getting all bent trying to prove something that is so unimportant and stupid it's pathetic. Rolling Stone gave their opinion, you gave yours, I gave mine. None are fact, settle down Sally.

Nothing I said was opinion.
Since you're a broad I'll make this easy for you.

Fact-Kiss from their earliest days, was always considered a metal band and marketed themselves as such.

Fact-Rolling Stone began the use of the term "heavy metal" to describe a sub-genre of rock.

Fact-Whoever coins a term gets to define it.

Fact-Kiss was always played on radio and MTV shows like Heavy Metal From Hell, Metalshop, Metal Mania, Headbangers Ball etc etc etc.

Now go ahead and reply yet again about how you don't care.

I have a video tape which has Manowar playing live in 1983 (Gloves of Metal era) followed by Kiss playing live in 1982 (The Elder era, their gayest era up to that point) and Kiss sounds a billion times heavier than Manowar does. Kiss could give Black Sabbath a run for their money when it comes to heavy sounding guitar tones.
If Kiss isn't metal than neither is Manowar.

I love Josh Martin....Manowar is, was, and ever shall be the gayest of the gay. Metal music for closet queers who like hairy chested naked men in loincloths. Face it. Oh yeah, I like Kiss too, and I don't give a flying monkey shit if they're considered "metal" enough or not by the RTTP elite.

Manowar is awesome. I don't jack off to album covers like you obviously do.

Manowar is power metal. To a lot of people, power metal is gay.

I happen to like a lot of power metal but I don't like KISS.

A lot of people of people who don't like power metal are gay.

I happen to love power metal and I don't care what anyone says about it. Do you agree Brothers of metal?

The Brothers of Metal Say hail Conquerthebaphomet. Power Metal rules!!

Some KISS songs are metal (Detroit Rock City, Psycho Circus), some are clearly rock (Rock and Roll All Night). I enjoy their metal songs, but could care less about their rock songs (in particular I think Beth is a pussy overrated ballad with no redeeming value).

And I totally agree about being against revisionist history in music; metal is metal, rock is rock. There's a quality to the music that makes it very different, and it's a constant that doesn't change over time. Just like no matter how many years we wait, The Beatles will not be considered jazz. (However, I could give a fuck less about what Rolling Stone says, metal is seperate from rock for inherant musical reasons that exist even when the terminology lags behind.)

And yes, Paul Stanley is the gayest man on the planet, the way he talks and looks just reeks of gayness. That guy should sing less lead vocals, NEVER talk between songs, NEVER do interviews... in fact, he should just shut up all together. Despite the Kiss songs I do like, his excessive gayness has always irritated me.

No Shadow, they're all metal because ROLLING STONE said so. Everything ROLLING STONE writes is fact.

Josh_Martin said:

Amen, brother.

Let me add to this:

Fact - KISS is as heavy/heavier than 50% of the NWOBHM bands. If those are 'heavy metal', as they are historically accurately labeled by the metal historians, then so is KISS.

Take a listen to some of the early 80s albums. The song structures are VERY similar (i.e. the SAME DAMN THING) to what you'd hear on Ozzy's early records, Quiet Riot, WASP, Saxon, Judas Priest, etc. I suppose none of these are metal now either? Otherwise, the logic and argument that KISS is not/has never been metal is entirely inconsistent.

The actual term 'heavy metal' was originally applied to rock music. Steppenwolf used it in a song lyric, and Blue Oyster Cult's manager used it to describe their music. So now Blue Oyster Cult is not metal either!

I read about half of this thread, so I hope I'm not just repeating the same stuff.

I'm not the biggest KISS fan, but I don't think they're that bad. I think their schtick is pretty cool, and didn't lots of earlier black metal bands kind of pull from them with corpsepaint? I don't know anything about the history of corpsepaint in black metal, so if I'm way off, I'm not surprised. Anyway, yeah, they have way too much merchandise, and it's downright shitty how money-hungry they are. But I do have their Alive album, it's actually the only album by them I have, and it's pretty awesome; I used to listen to it a lot. Also, I saw them in I think 2003 with Aerosmith, a double-headliner with Aerosmith playing last. I went for Aerosmith but KISS stole the show for me, with their classic larger-than life stage show. Paul Stanley's voice and personality still holds up to the glam-rocker style of his youth (not saying I think he has an incredible voice or anything, but he still has the same one he used to after all these years). Aerosmith didn't have a particularly awesome set, and they didn't even give us an encore (probably more a curfew issue though). Nothing against Aerosmith, I saw them in 2001 and it was great, I like a lot of their stuff. Well, that's my story.

Certainly black and theatrical metal took an obvious influence from KISS and Alice Cooper.

I agree 100% with the money hungry thing today. But I still loved the first two decades of KISS.

Yeah, it's true, to my understanding heavy metal used to just be used as an offhand sort of way by kids and musicians alike just to describe the heavier rock of the times. Sabbath, Deep Purple, KISS, even acts like Hendrix and Zeppelin were sometimes referred to as heavy metal. Not that I was around during the heyday of any of these groups.

Exactly.

Even in the 80s, bands like Poison, Bon Jovi, Motley Crue, etc were referred to as 'glam metal' or 'metal'.

Gorgoroth releases a record called "Destroyer" heavy for the late 90s, they wear corpse paint and employ Satanic imagery. It's 'metal'.

KISS releases a record called "Destroyer" heavy for the 70s, they wear corpse paint and employ Satanic imagery. It's not 'metal'.

Evidence of why we should revise all metal history and take the advice of these kids whose first metal band was In Flames.

hahahaha

Josh, could you repost that anecdote about Ace pretending he was an SS officer and showing up at Paul's hotel room at like 4am and telling him he was taking him to a concentration camp?

It will silence all the anti-KISS sentiment.

the TRUE origins of corpse paint

Sooo, as it turns out, I don't have Alive. I was thinking of Greatest KISS. I guess I got confused cause there are one or two live songs on there.

retzam said:

True, but that was only in the case of people who didn't understand the difference between metal and rock.

This confusion was aggrevated by the fact that there were bands in the 70's like Aerosmith and Kiss that played a good amount of both rock songs and metal sibgs, followed by bands like Tesla and Bon Jovi in the 80's that did the same. Although some such cases are ambigious, when it comes to classifying a band, it usually works to call them what they play the majority of the time. Like Zepplin, for instance: the majority of their stuff was rock, although they dabbled in many other genres, including metal; therefore they are a rock band, and calling them a metal band is misleading. Poison played mostly rock and only a little metal, therefore they were a rock band with a couple metal tunes, NOT a metal band. Bands like Ratt and Motley Crue were the opposite, metal bands that played a rock song here and there.

Anyone who really listens to the music can tell the difference between rock song and a metal song, it's not rocket science, but the fact that there are bands that have played both still confuses the language, unfortunately.

I say unfortunately because that kind of confusion primarily hurts metal, which clearly deserves to be respected as its own genre.

ShadowSD said:


Well, you missed the whole point of my post. Back then it was all relative. In 1973 Zeppelin was one of the heaviest bands around, so they were some times called metal. Whether they are or are not metal by today's standards is irrelavent.

The picture on the bottom rules.

L -R Ian Hill, KK Downing, Scott Travis, Glen Tipton, Franken Ace, Ace, Paul, Franken Peter, Rob Halford, Gene

worst band ever

Kiss is the shit.

seriously, nice fucking spandex dudes.