this is an adaptation from another thread.

The question here is:

What is going on with music in New England as far as how it gets put together with shows, clubs, etc? Why do you think some places are opening/closing doors? What can we do about it?

this was the old thread:
http://www.returntothepit.com/view.php?formid=23131

this new one suggests taking the focus off of Ben and making it more general

DIY Booking Guide:

http://www.returntothepit.com/view.php?formid=10484#143871

well i believe some of it has to do with elitism. i've seen alot of people who are only interested in certain bands, and arent even willing to give another band a chance. i mean sure, you are going to come across those you thought were good and really werent, but without taking a risk you may miss out on one that really kicks ass. also i think it has to do with the volume of shows. there are like 30 a day, and its not possible to get enough people to go to every show. i dont think there is a really easy way to combat this, unless everyone works together and stops the feuding shit over who is more kvlt or whos band is better than whos. like we, Sacreligion, are playing with The Departed on Friday. i am very excited about this, we had some issues with them in the past, but i am extremely happy that we let that shit go. its not worth it. we are all fighting for the same thing, so why fight each other when support will go so much further. thats my opinion.

Discussion of a complaint over O'Brein's payment policy / systems for bands getting paid:

http://www.returntothepit.com/view.php?formid=23161

yah, so why discuss it here when its in that thread? im not sure what your trying to accomplish here. explain.

I agree with the elitism idea. The scene has changed, with the transformation of nu-metal into metalcore...shows are being booked with hardcore and metal bands and that is starting to ruin shows because of fighting. I think people need to begin to adapt to both styles because shows are being booked with both types of bands. Further more, some people just don't fucking go out to shows. People who book are getting fucked over because the scene is becoming lazy. I really hope something boosts it or it is going to become a dying breed.

seperating genres is no good for any party....if a band tours with the same bands all the time and playing to the same crowd, then no one new is buying thier record.

An "open" booking forum where - in order to speak - you must submit an application to Ben Sisto:

http://board.honeypump.net/t.php?id=22194&r=49

anonymous said:


To promote a relatively directed discussion on the more red-tape aspects of being a band/promoter/booker/etc, and to provide some links to other previous discussions so that tangential remarks are available here.

anonymous said:


I didnt say to seperate genres, people need to begin to become more tolerant of each genre.

The big problem, everyone goes to see their friends, not to go see bands for the hell of it. Everyone is kinda guilty of that to some degree with a few exceptions.

The exception being Goodtimes, most clubs just care about draw/money and don't want to give any new bands a chance. I have to say, this is where Goodtimes proves how key it can be because Chris McMahon is a dude who'll give any band a chance, we've played there a few times and been there plenty of times to see him give tons of bands a chance to play on good shows and start making a crowd. It sucks that its 21+, but what can one do.

Thats the other problem, clubs are always 21+ now... And the like two that arent... suck. Like Jarrods.


And the elitism/seperation does suck to. Granted it sucks playing with all metalcore/nu metal bands (which we've had to do lately), but even though I don't like those styles or bands at all, I have to say about 95% of them have been nothing but cool and open minded to us. The problem is, everyone around here just hates on bands that arent their thing and it just creates personal resentment which is based on nothing more than what their band plays for a style. It serves no purpose except dividing what ever little scene there is. If you can mix the styles from time to time, it makes the crowd bigger and more diverse, you don't have to like the styles or the bands that are playing with you, but if you are all trying to just help each other... then what does it matter?

i love your scene. clitorture loved your scene. the hair made it great.

but seriously, we never played any other place where we really had the full attention of everybody there for every part of every song, and such an enthusiastic welcome and farewell....and so much hair.

i've noticed that everyone around here really just comes out to have a good time and check out some good music. there's no fights, no tough guy pit bullshit, just having fun and respecting each other, and drinking beer and smoking dank weed and headbanging like fucking champs.

here in albany, all most people care about is how they look to their homeys. it's more about being seen at a show than seeing a show. most only care about the breakdowns and just clown around for the other parts of the song. and if you're not part of a crew, you might as well not bother because you'll get jabbed with elbows and spin kicks all night. and there's fight after fight after fight, but not one on one fights, it's crews killing single people. not all people out here are like this, but an unfortunately large number are.

i def. miss playing in NE far more that albany.

Cecchini juiced by UML said:

i agree but theres a few other things that piss me off such as

1. bands leaving right after they play and taking all there freinds with them and not even bothering to watch the other bands
2.when i headbang and shit and flip out for some other band then when your band goes on all the other people just sit there with there arms crossed like tough guys
3.people who sit back and watch another band play and just shit on them the whole time


no bands wanna be freinds anymore haha as gay as that sounds. like isnt a scene supposed to get each other shows and rock out for each others bands and have a good rowdy time at shows? maybe im wrong maybe this all just goes back to "no fun,no mosh,no core" where all just to grim or wicked tech death or grind to have fun at shows anymore

those are 3 excellent points

I thought it was fucked up that Ben Sisto was talking about consolidating everything from basement shows up to the club scene in that invite only open meeting. If I want to put on a basement show at my house or if Suffolk ever lets me use the theatre am I going to have to run it through club promoters so I don't book banned bands? That's gayer than a hefty bag filled with jizz.

I think the aim of this thread, rather than focusing on elitism and bands not liking other styles, should be on creating a viable scene that provides an alternative to the proposed idea of putting every show in Boston under one banner.

BobNOMAAMRooney nli said:


I think that is a smart idea.

the_taste_of_cigarettes said:

Abolish all Kenny Lanning shows. Start the boycott for real this time! Do it for the music, do it for fans, do it for the scene.....

"1. bands leaving right after they play and taking all there freinds with them and not even bothering to watch the other bands
2.when i headbang and shit and flip out for some other band then when your band goes on all the other people just sit there with there arms crossed like tough guys
3.people who sit back and watch another band play and just shit on them the whole time "


Why, would you say, this happens?

"we can waste we can come and go we can act like we don't know about suffering and pain we can live our lives in shame for never helping anyone we know or don't but we need to recognize that we are dying if we live alone let's send our energy out with what we know and unify today because our freedom sits at the end of a gun we're all here getting beat up and held back we're all here digging knives from our backs we've all been betrayed because it's business not people it's always take and it is never give and that's not the way i want to live cause that's nothing but dying and we're nothing if we sell ourselves close your eyes never hear never cry for living an empty life" - At The End Of A Gun, Hot Water Music off of No Division 1999

You know what would be a pretty cool idea? If some local bands put on a month of open rehersals. There doesn't have to be one on every day of the week like NEST or anything, but if a band has a practice why not open it up and charge like $3 at the door. There would be a more shows and the money would go directly to the band and help pay for their practice space.

I've been wanting to do that for a while with the Arlington kids...like let them come to practice for free and have fun. Maybe I'll bring that up at practice today. I think it's a great idea though. I dunnow about charging, maybe just doing it for free would be great and help build community.

What about making sure no one walks out with anything? Just trust?

dont the guys in the departed already do this and get no support for it. just saying not trying to start shit

the_taste_of_cigarettes said:


Lock them in? That's one of the hardest things about this idea, nobody wants to spend an entire show watching everyone else to make sure nothing is stolen, but there are assholes who would see it as a chance to steal some shit.

the_taste_of_cigarettes said:

these are good points, but there are some good reasons behind stuff like this happening.

- 1 is never cool and there's almost never a good excuse for it.

- 2 i agree that this sucks to have to experience, but sometimes when a band just played a set and their bodies are sore from having just headbanged like crazy on stage, they just don't have enough energy to go nuts for the following bands.

- 3 Talking shit definitely isn't cool, but also a performing band can't expect that the crowd is going to like them automatically. It sucks to be playing your heart out and the crowd just isn't feeling it, but that's just the way it is. The solution then is to figure out what wasn't clicking so that the crowd didnt really get into it and then fix it (whether it's songwriting, tightness, sound quality, etc...). Also, try to find shows that will draw a crowd that will better appreciate your style.

also for that matter doesnt bobdead and the redrum family also open up their practice spot/home to people and no one shows support...well unless grief is playing it

or is this like strictly a boston thing and thats a rhode island thing.

whiskey_weed_and_women said:


Redrum isn't "public" in that you gotta go looking for the address. That means work and believe it or not, studies show most people are lazy and unless they really want something, or need it to survive (and sometimes not even then), they won't make the effort. Also Bob tends to work with his friends bands and Redrum is a place to mostly showcase the stuff he/the Redrum booker (who I suspect is bob but who knows) like. I mean, how many times does the same line-up have to play there? But hey, that's their thing, just I wouldn't doubt why it's not the mecca of new england and hardcore metal at moment.

ha, no one is saying it needs to be the mecca for anything. i just find it funny the ideas you're offering up are already out there but unless you like them or go along with them it doesnt matter.

good for you

and also for that matter when the library was up and running hardly anyone from here came out to those shows too, im not saying no one came out but all i heard from people here was i hate basement shows, bitch, whine blah blah blah.

these things are already here and ready to be used, just no one wants to put the effort into it. like you already stated, but im not telling you anything you dont already know

When we play shows, we let them know in advance if we have to leave early, and we're strict about not making plans before, after, and ESPECIALLY during shows so we can be there for the other bands. I think playing a show, in a small way, is like going to work. Would you go to work, do your job for 20 minutes, then leave? No, you stay the whole time in case you're needed or what not. It's not just about respect, though that's a big point, but it's also about it being more practical and you might see a band you like, or more people will come in and you can get gas money, or maybe you'll sell a shirt, or maybe you'll make a new friend (which we are big on but I can't speak for everyone).

whiskey_weed_and_women said:

people bitched about the library? not that I don't believe you, I just find that surprising.

i loved that place, too bad Jonah can't do shows at his new house.

whiskey_weed_and_women said:


Sean, I hear you being slanderous. Why not say what we could do without putting it so negatively? And you at one point went back and forth on supporting and not supporting the library. How can you criticize others for feeling the same way?

also the library never posted their address. It would be wiser to say what venues that are public, easy to find, with clear addresses that people could go to; not obscure ones that people didn't try to attend in the past.

Anthony nli said:

yeah, i loved the place too...wish we could have played there more.

well were talking about practice spaces, these are those and yeah i did and i believe a lot of people change their minds on places, events, people. it's called being human, im not being slanderous for that matter im not even being negative. im just stating shit is already here. you're coming in like you need to be the savior of something. last time i looked we've got enough saviors we need someone who can cook !

well said. i hope that this applies for the Summer Sayonara fest this weekend. this has potential to be a great show, if people stay. there are alot of great bands that people havent been exposed to on the lineup. even if they arent exactly your style, thats still no reason to not give them a chance.

I know I'm not really adding anything new to this but I would like to express my agreement with people on many of the points already expressed.

1. Not enough all ages shows. The scene is hurting becuase bands can only play for the 21+ crowd, which tend to be signifigantly more jaded than under 18 or under 21 crowd. Kids are the key, if we can get them into the scene, they tend to be a lot more enthusiastic about it.

2. People who are in bands dont go see other bands. They promote the hell out of themselves but don't try to support other bands.

3. Assholes who ruin shows. Theres no good way to fix this problem but I figured I'd mention it anyways. Example: some time this past summer or spring I went to see Devil in the Kitchen and The Taste of Silver at some American Legion or something like that in Winchester. Some assholes from various hardcore/metalcore bands which played that day and their fans acted like complete tools. They smashed lightbulbs in the middle of the floor and harrased various people who were watching the bands. This kind of shit really pisses me off. Theres not a lot you can do about the fans is the problem I guess.

I remember the dude said "If you don't mosh, I will remember your face".

I wonder if he remember me.

i'd rather just focus on the music

Eddie said:

what is this in response to?

the_taste_of_cigarettes said:

the whole thread in general

Eddie said:

So you're saying that if you just focus on the music you'll have a band, people will put you on shows, you'll get paid, respect, and everything you ever wanted...and everyone will be happy?

if you just "focus on the music" and don't put anything into the whole idea of what you're doing, then nothing will happen. image and attitude is just as important as the music. if you're just going to be some band and then put nothing into it to let people know how you feel or what you're about, then no one is going to care.

more punk less rock.

Yeti said:




is there really that much feuding between bands/fans/promoters??
I dont see why there should be. we all in the same business right?

my_pretentious_erection said:

This statement is exactly whats "wrong" with the new england"scene"
i agree with the other guy focus on the music, because anyone over the age of 16 doesnt give a fuck about your "message"

People go to shows they want to see, thats the inner workings of the scene. There is no secrets to it, I think maybe you are thinking too much about the question so the obvious answer has eluded you.
It all comes down to business terms, what is the market you are going for?
There is nothing wrong with 21+ or 18+ shows like some people would have you believe. For instance, an obvious example is Jonah's band who only plays all ages shows. Thats easy for them to make that stand, the majority of the older crowd wouldn't like them so by standing for the rights of younger kids to attend shows they rally a fanbase who is more likely to get into them anyway.

Another example, Kevorkian's Angels, probably wouldn't get much of a younger fanbase no matter how many basement or hall shows they played. Musically, I think they would (and have) intimidated alot of younger kids. I also think alot of doom bands fall into this same situation and if they were to condemn age restricted shows they would probably just fall off the radar.

As far as booking people go, I think alot of pay to play and selling tickets has ceased to exist in this area. That I am happy about because I think it's bullshit. The majority of promoters now book on what they feel. Sure some bands might get left out, but thats the game. Maybe it's elitism, but why on earth would I want to see bands I don't like? I go to so many shows that the second I hear a band who is even just okay, I get bored to death. As far as bands playing and leaving, same deal, why would they want to hear bands they don't like and who aren't going to support them? I mean, seriously, the only reason most of you people want the scene to unite or whatever is so your own band can reap the benefits of such a thing. The scene is united though, all you people are really saying now is that people who don't like your bands should support your bands anyways, because it's better for the scene.

Nick, to be honest, I don't recall the last time I saw you at a show that you guys didn't play. Maybe you aren't familiar with the bands or don't like them and thats perfectly fine. But I think starting a thread trying to identify the problems in the scene (and which scene are we talking anyways?), but not really supporting any shows, makes you seem a little arrogant. There could be shows you are attending that I just am not at, but that goes to the which scene are we talking about question.

Alot of people from alot of the local bands attend alot of shows, I know because I see them there. Bands who play together and like each other, more often then not seem to support each other even when their own band is not playing. So many people talk about 'supporting the scene' or unifying it or whatever, but to me it already seems to be that way.

Joe/NotCommon said:
It all comes down to business terms, what is the market you are going for?
QUOTE]

nnnnhhhh! wrong again chief! it always has and always will be about the music! some" people" may seek to prfit by it but without the music there is no show therefore no promoters,no free guest lists and no nonmusician celebrities...take away the music and what have you got? dick.

You don't understand what I said you fuck.

If you are a thrash band and you keep playing emo shows then you went for the wrong market. If you need to me to simplify it even more, let me know. I would hate for you to be left behind.

you got a little bit of an attitude over there chief! sorry,i wasnt taking a shot at you directly,but since your all fired up,please simplify it for me.

Okay, try this:

If you were in a death metal band, would you want to play on jazz shows in east Cambridge?

I never said the music didn't matter, of course it does. It matters to the people who are going to like it (aka; a market).

actually,id love to play jazz shows in east cambridge! tell me where to sign! but,i see what your saying,i get a little worked up when people start talking about "image" and having a "message" because as far as i can see thats the whole friggin problem nowadays!
but now that i actually read your post i see thats not what you were saying at all!

I see what your saying Joe.

At the same time I think its cool to take risks and try playing for different audiences who might have a few open minded individuals that might dig your style.

Like we play thrash and black metal and stuff and mostly is looking to play metal shows. But wed also like trying a show with some punk or hardcore or even hard rock bands sometime if we get the chance.


playing with emo bands on the other hand...hahaha....well....weve done that too sorta. interesting experience but yea, not exactly connecting with your target audience

Joe/NotCommon said:

No you're right, I haven't been to very many since the Chopping Block stopped doing stuff and I could see it for free. I mean, my reasoning is that I don't have much money (and then when I am working to get money I can't be at the shows at the same time), free time (the kids all have projects due before winter break!), and since I hurt my hand I can't ride my bike anywhere till it gets better and I can work the hand breaks and hold the handlebars.

What I need is loot and a car...then I'd be at more!

The last show I didn't play but attended was...lemme think...Maybe Harris at MassArt this summer? Perhaps? oh no wait it was Waltham in Waltham for that MADE screening. That was also this summer, like September I think.

Yeah I don't go to a lot of metal shows when I don't like the bands. I like Teratism, Porphyria, Bugs & Rats, HBBSI, Nadir, etc etc but some stuff I don't know or don't care to see. I like the idea of supporting local music but not when I have to pay $8, which I wouldn't charge for a show I was doing unless I had to. The thing that makes it difficult on a promoters end is that with inflation, $6 doesn't cover much anymore, so we have to start asking for a bit more. I used to ask $3 for shows and I'd like to still do that but I doubt it's feasible.

As for national music, I didn't grow up on death metal but I grew up with grind, pop punk, hardcore, and some country. I'd go to see that stuff if it was something that appealed to me, was close by, and was cost effective.

OH!

BTW last show I went to was NIN at The Fleet Center

apocalyptic hammer said:

That was fucking retarded.

apocalyptic hammer said:

Yeah, it pretty clearly was.

apocalyptic hammer said:

A "message". Oh, heavens, no, not that! Those guys are using the microphone to say something! Somebody stop them!

ok anon, maybe this is a better way to say what i mean: if you only focus on the music, but don't incorperate the same passion into other parts of your life that you do the music, then you're an idiot. if you're in a metal band, but want nothing to do with metal outside of your own band, and people KNOW that, then they won't be interested. if your band is the only thing that matters because it's "only about the music" then you're missing half of what a band is about - the people in it. there's at least half a dozen local bands i don't like at all because i know who is in the band and know what they're like. i'm not going to a show to see some douchebags ( even if they are a decent band ) if i know they don't give a shit about anyone other than themselves or their "music".

the_taste_of_cigarettes said:

yes i'd rather focus on the music rather than talk about all the problems in your scene.

fuck off

my_pretentious_erection said:

you also can fuck off

people are bitching on a thread about how our scene works...that about says it all

"Alot of people from alot of the local bands attend alot of shows, I know because I see them there. Bands who play together and like each other, more often then not seem to support each other even when their own band is not playing. So many people talk about 'supporting the scene' or unifying it or whatever, but to me it already seems to be that way."

i completely agree with this. i can't get to every show but i try to make it out if i like the band. i have seen noosebomb/adolf satan/watchmaker/kevorkians angels/abhorred/hekseri/conifer/sin of angels, etc a million times and i will still go see them. some people dont realize how lucky they are to live in mass.

Eddie said:


hahaahahha wait so what band are you in?

Eddie is in Dissector

talkin about music aint got dick to do with playin music.

hey you are awesome in that videogame you are in

I think the other threads got a long way from this.

The goal is to come up with real, tangible data and tools that can help turn things around. As in "Shows that are on friday night seem to do well, but how can well do shows on the same night?" or "Perhaps vary the lineups more" or something.

Joe/NotCommon said:

As usual, Joe owned everybody.
Everything he said above is 100% accurate.