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returntothepit >> discuss >> [Book] Born to Run by the_reverend on Feb 8,2010 9:25am
Add To All Your Pages!
toggletoggle post by the_reverend   at Feb 8,2010 9:25am



toggletoggle post by arilliusbm  at Feb 8,2010 9:31am
Way to incorporate a book tag.



toggletoggle post by martins   at Feb 8,2010 9:33am
I do not agree with what McDougall supposes to be true.



toggletoggle post by the_reverend   at Feb 8,2010 9:34am
I believe in 1/2 the things that aril says.



toggletoggle post by the_reverend   at Feb 8,2010 9:35am
martins said[orig][quote]
I do not agree with what McDougall supposes to be true.
Oh, you finished the book? how was it? I'm on page 50-ish. I sort of stopped so I could read state of decay.



toggletoggle post by martins   at Feb 8,2010 9:36am
Yeah, hated every fucking word of it.



toggletoggle post by the_reverend   at Feb 8,2010 9:41am
really. does he keep the same antagonist through the whole thing?



toggletoggle post by martins   at Feb 8,2010 9:53am
No. It wasn't about his views. His writing style irked me.



toggletoggle post by the_reverend   at Feb 8,2010 9:57am
the first pages I read haven't found their flow yet so me will see. I just watched that video on amazon and i don't like his face for one thing



toggletoggle post by martins   at Feb 8,2010 9:58am
Although, I don't believe that humans as a species were meant to run long distances or persistence hunt. If a person likes to run for sport or for themselves, be my guest.



toggletoggle post by the_reverend   at Feb 8,2010 10:37am
I'm going to run and hunt carrots. When 70 year olds can run 100 miles, they are doing something right.



toggletoggle post by martins   at Feb 8,2010 10:39am
And do they look healthy and happy?



toggletoggle post by the_reverend   at Feb 8,2010 10:42am
they did in text form.



toggletoggle post by martins   at Feb 8,2010 10:44am
Old people QQ



toggletoggle post by Doomkid   at Feb 8,2010 10:45am
Persistence hunting may have taken a different form with humans. Corral and drive hunting have been pretty popular in stone age peoples that live in open terrain. Perhaps on the African savanna pre-horse domestication the herd animals were driven by humans that would have to run 5, 10 miles at a time.



toggletoggle post by martins   at Feb 8,2010 10:55am
Yes but you have to consider what they were doing most of their time. With the exception of the Tarahumara, most tribal/paleolithic people were not running most of the time. Yes they had the energy and endurance to do it but, most of the time, they were walking or moving very slowly. Sure, it's conjecture but why would anyone who regularly had environmental pressures around them do anything taxing when they didn't have to.



toggletoggle post by Doomkid   at Feb 8,2010 11:00am
I agree that it is conjecture, but its also feasible. Sub-Saharan Africa was not exactly a harsh environment a few hundred thousand years ago(as far as we know of course).



toggletoggle post by martins   at Feb 8,2010 11:03am
Wait, was NOT harsh?



toggletoggle post by arktouros at Feb 8,2010 11:12am edited Feb 8,2010 11:22am
martins said[orig][quote]
Although, I don't believe that humans as a species were meant to run long distances or persistence hunt. If a person likes to run for sport or for themselves, be my guest.



No...humans have the best endurance in the animal kingdom. Early hunters would need to harass and tire out their prey with constant chasing, projectiles etc. because they couldn't match them with bursts of speed or natural defenses (horns, claws..). Humans are the only species that can continuously run at marathon paces without rest or nourishment. Animals like cheetahs and even whales need to rest every so often across long distances because their muscles essentially shut down. Long distances and persistant hunting is what made us human...is there a reason you don't believe this martins?

edit - i'm not talking about cultured tribes that used languages, i'm talking about early on the evolutionary timeline.



toggletoggle post by Pires at Feb 8,2010 11:12am


i thought this thread was going to have Boss appreesh. FAIL.



toggletoggle post by martins   at Feb 8,2010 11:20am
arktouros said[orig][quote]
martins said[orig][quote]
Although, I don't believe that humans as a species were meant to run long distances or persistence hunt. If a person likes to run for sport or for themselves, be my guest.



No...humans have the best endurance in the animal kingdom. Early hunters would need to harass and tire out their prey with constant chasing, projectiles etc. because they couldn't match them with bursts of speed or natural defenses (horns, claws..). Humans are the only species that can continuously run at marathon paces without rest or nourishment. Animals like cheetahs and even whales need to rest every so often across long distances because their muscles essentially shut down. Long distances and persistant hunting is what made us human...is there a reason you don't believe this martins?


Because how do you support long distance running? Muscle glycogen. What do you turn to when you run out of muscle glycogen? Liver glycogen. There goes all your (sugar-based) fuel. Your body starts craving carbs, a commodity in paleolithic times. Fruits were seasonal, vegetables weren't gathered or eaten in modern quantities, and grains were never EVER consumed pre-agriculture. The body does have two mechanisms to make up for this called Ketosis and GlucoNeoGenesis (GNG). Ketosis is a state in which the brain and liver use ketone bodies instead of glucose for fuel. Ketone bodies are made directly from fat stores. GNG is when the body makes glucose from protein. GNG can happen in states of starvation and the protein will come from the muscles or it can happen when excess dietary protein is ingested in the presence of depleted glycogen stores.

Basically, what I'm saying that depleting glycogen stores triggers a state similar to starvation that the body does not like being in. While Ketosis isn't a bad thing (it's actually a natural cure for epilepsy), GNG can cause muscle depletion which is something a paleolithic man would not want happening. He wouldn't be aware of these processes but millions of years of trial and error can tell you a thing or two.



toggletoggle post by arilliusbm  at Feb 8,2010 11:21am
Canines have the best endurance.



toggletoggle post by the_reverend   at Feb 8,2010 11:23am
I just watched 10,000BC the other week and I think that martins is wrong.



toggletoggle post by arktouros at Feb 8,2010 11:30am
our body mass to endurance ratio is better than canines but...yeah i suppose canines can run greater distances easier.

and martins i don't pretend to much of anything about body chemistry, but i just wanted to disagree about humans not being meant to run or hunt persistently. obviously the mechanisms are there, if survival is at stake, most bodies can run as long as they have to, most animals can't say that.



toggletoggle post by martins   at Feb 8,2010 11:31am
Fight or flight response, sure. I definitely think that humans can run long distances when they absolutely need to. In fact, I believe that it's probably a good natural stressor every once in a while. The best training for long distance running is short intense 100% heart rate sprints. Or so, I've heard. Fucking Lance Armstrong practices using kettlebell.



toggletoggle post by the_reverend   at Feb 8,2010 11:32am
I disagree

exhibit 1:the butter ball.



toggletoggle post by arilliusbm  at Feb 8,2010 11:32am
lol, 10 grade essay with no sources cited. See me after class, Martins.



toggletoggle post by martins   at Feb 8,2010 11:35am
You want sources? Look up ketosis and GNG. Yeah I made up body chemistry. Class now, I'll argue some more later.



toggletoggle post by martins   at Feb 8,2010 11:36am
the_reverend said[orig][quote]
I disagree

exhibit 1:the butter ball.


Called insulin resistance.
First step to diabetes. Look it up. You can be skinny and also be insulin resistance. All carbs except fructose get converted to glucose which insulin acts directly upon.



toggletoggle post by arktouros at Feb 8,2010 11:49am
nah, i ran track for 6 years....sprinting is a totally different movement than long distance. different muscle memory, posture, ankle movement...everything. our coach would not let long distance runners do sprinting exercises, one reason being sprinting is more susceptible to all types of injuries/hyperextensions/etc (he coached quite a few all-state runners and jumpers). the long distance runners would run long distances, and the sprinters would sprint. long distance running is very cerebral. the mental preparation alone would make distance training essential.



toggletoggle post by the_reverend   at Feb 8,2010 11:53am
LOL, ketosis and GNG was invented in 2002 by starburst's parent company Mars Inc.



toggletoggle post by martins   at Feb 8,2010 1:29pm
News to me, rev?

Ark, I know of a few long distance runners that practice using sprinting exercises.



toggletoggle post by arilliusbm  at Feb 8,2010 1:36pm
northeastern's track team = LOL



toggletoggle post by Doomkid   at Feb 8,2010 2:34pm
I think the argument here is whether humans' long distance running abilities are a function of evolution or merely a sidebar benefit. Unfortunately proving it either way would be a bitch and a half given how sparse the evidence is.

And Martins, there is evidence of wild grains being consumed by pre-agrarian societies and by hunter-gatherer groups that encouraged certain flora to grow but didn't really 'farm'. But you're right about the environment for early humans, I was thinking back to the 5-8 MYA time range for hominids.



toggletoggle post by LPCustom at Feb 8,2010 2:35pm
Pires wins - everyone else loses. Album = masterpiece.



toggletoggle post by martins   at Feb 8,2010 2:55pm
Doomkid said[orig][quote]
I think the argument here is whether humans' long distance running abilities are a function of evolution or merely a sidebar benefit. Unfortunately proving it either way would be a bitch and a half given how sparse the evidence is.

And Martins, there is evidence of wild grains being consumed by pre-agrarian societies and by hunter-gatherer groups that encouraged certain flora to grow but didn't really 'farm'. But you're right about the environment for early humans, I was thinking back to the 5-8 MYA time range for hominids.


If you compared paleolithic skeletons to neolithic ones, you will see that we are now shorter, have a lower bone density, and have worse teeth. Humans have not evolved to eat grass seeds (grains). They don't want to be eaten anyway.



toggletoggle post by martins   at Feb 8,2010 2:59pm



toggletoggle post by Doomkid   at Feb 8,2010 3:05pm
I'm defintiely not saying that eating them ins such quantities is a good thing, I was merely pointing out that in the diverse hunter-gatherer diet the wild precursors to wheat, rice and such were consumed. It was when the grains became the staple of the diet instead of a supplement that the changes would have started.



toggletoggle post by martins   at Feb 8,2010 3:11pm
Exactly. A great experiment would be to go grain free(including beer) for a month and see how you feel. I know I feel great. Little things that used to bother me don't anymore.



toggletoggle post by Doomkid   at Feb 8,2010 3:12pm
So you've cut out beer also? In my consideration of a grain-reduced diet I was torn about this. Though I wouldn't be too sad if I had to survive drinking whiskey and G+Ts for the rest of my life.



toggletoggle post by martins   at Feb 8,2010 3:15pm
I feel that once your body is accustomed being gluten free, a good beer every once in a while won't kill you. I just don't feel the need to drink anyway. Distilled liquor is the way to go.



toggletoggle post by Bradness nli at Feb 8,2010 5:50pm
Nutrition in my Metal Forum?
It's more likely than you think



toggletoggle post by arilliusbm  at Feb 8,2010 5:56pm
Thanks to the Internet, everyone is an expert on everything!



toggletoggle post by martins   at Feb 8,2010 6:20pm
Never claimed to be an expert. I said what I know. Read it or don't.



toggletoggle post by the_reverend   at Feb 8,2010 8:18pm
lmgtfy



toggletoggle post by ArilliusBM  at Feb 8,2010 8:20pm
General statement.



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