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:	post by ShadowSD at 2006-03-24 10:15:49

ShadowSD said:

We may not like it, but America as a superpower sets the standard for the rest of the world in ways we don't even realize, and this is doubly true after the fall of the USSR and our emergence as the sole superpower. We elect a foreign policy hardliner (Bush), and yet we are surprised when other countries do the same (Iranians electing Ahmedinejad / Palestinians electing HAMAS).

PatMeebles said: Bush ran as an isolationist in 2000. 9/11 obviously changed that.

They love to make that argument, don't they? The problem is that Dick Cheney was advocating an invasion of Iraq to ensure a permanent oil supply long before 9/11. The attack on our soil simply provided a political climate that allowed us to go.

Had a Democrat or conventional Republican (like Bush Senior) been elected, we NEVER would have invaded Iraq after 9/11. Only the neo-cons advocated something so stupid, and neo-cons had Bush's ear from the beginning. Bush should have been honest in 2000 that he was running as a neo-con, but he didn't because that never would have won the election, so he ran as a salt-of-the-earth, honest and uncorrupt traditional conservative.

Many people in Iran feel the exact same way about Ahmadinejad, who did not campaign as the foreign policy neo-con he is, but as a salt-of-the-earth, honest and uncorrupt traditional conservative.

PatMeebles said:

But, we also don't want to wipe Isreal off the map (like Iran), or Iraq.

I hope this article opens your eyes, as it did mine:

"(Iran has) the largest Jewish community in the Middle East, outside of Israel.

At the Jewish Community Center in Tehran, Dr. Unes Hammai-Lalehzar says the Jewish population has had its ups and downs, but he doesn't believe there's any discrimination from the general public.

I ask him if there's been any change in the climate since Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's recent remarks both questioning the Holocaust and calling for Israel to be 'wiped off the map.'

'As far as daily life goes here, there hasn't been an impact on us,' he says, 'We don't see any difference in our lives. But maybe others feel differently.'

He continues, saying the Iranian government has made a clear effort to distinguish between Zionism and Judaism.

'Zionism is a political party that enjoys Jewish symbols and ideals, but it's not the same thing,' he says. 'The law that is being enforced in Israel is not Jewish law, it's not religious; its anti-religious.'

In the nearby synagogue, David Zakaria, who owns a rubber factory, agrees.

'His comments were directed more to Israel as a political entity,' he says of President Ahmadinejad. 'I'm connected to Israel religiously, it's the Holy Land, but not politically.'"

Full Article: http://hotzone.yahoo.com/b/hotzone/20060119/hz_iran_0106/blogs2276;_ylt=AoC.F..VVaoDWiB4j4tTGnWwEcsF;_ylu=X3oDMTBhcGtxczUxBHNlYwNoenRyaXA-

The fact that these viewpoints have not been voiced in the American news media 1% as much as the initial knee-jerk reaction to Ahmadinejad's comments can only harm us, building an unnecessary atmosphere of resentment and mistrust between West and East that only benefits jihadists in the long run. There are plenty of legitimate reasons to hate the theocratic government of Iran that don't involve the red herring of labeling all Anti-Zionism as Anti-Semitism.

PatMeebles said:

You may disagree with why we're there, but even if it was for oil, we went in to foster a democratic and free Iraq that would (hopefully) be friendly to the US, thus (if you're stuck on the oil argument), would make oil trading a lot easier.

The problem with the democracy argument is that I never bought that either. You can't impose democracy by definition, and any grade schooler can figure that out by glancing at a Social Studies textbook.

Can you name one time in history democracy has successfully been imposed to replace fascist laws and dogma? Anytime in human history a culture has tried to unilaterally interfere with a less developed society, the results were invariably disasterous.

PatMeebles said:

OBL wants to overthrow the Saudis. Islamists, yes. Al Qaeda, no. Oil country that we're stuck having to deal with, hell yes.

I was just going by the same standard you provided for Saddam Hussein, being supportive of a regime (Sudan) that was linked to Al Qaeda. Many of the most powerful people connected with the Saudi goverment are members of the Bin Laden family. Like it or not, that is a link to Al Qaeda. If such tangential reasoning rings hollow to you, you understand why I am hesitant to use tangential reasoning to suggest Hussein was aiding Al Qaeda.

PatMeebles said:

Well, Al Qaeda was in the US because it wanted to attack us. Al Qaeda was in Iraq training in places like Salman Pak (a government-run training ground with 747's used in hijacking lessons) and recruiting fighters to fight in Afghanistan

The 9/11 hijackers did their flight training in the US, so they were using US planes to train, and this is undisputed (unlike the Salmon Pak claims) Does that in and of itself make our government responsible?

Also, Al Qaeda later recruited Americans like Johnny Walker to fight against the US in Afghanistan? Is our government responsible for that?

PatMeebles said:

Not if we're blamed for the world's problem, like we are for sectarian violence (I didn't realize that the mere presence of US troops would cause Shiites and Sunnis to hate each other becasue of their race.)

No one is saying that, those sectarian tensions have always existed in Iraq. What people are saying is that US troops are responsible for overthrowing Hussein, whose iron-fisted dictatorship was the only thing keeping those tensions in check. (Which was one of the main reasons George Bush Sr. and James Baker gave fifteen years ago when turning down the opportunity to topple Hussein)

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